Se aprobará el Estatut. Se harán las fotos pertinentes. Cada uno la que más le convenga. Volverá desfigurado pero volverá. No será lo que se pretendía pero será diferente del vigente.
Se agitarán las aguas políticas y mediáticas. Cataluña será siendo el gran problema. Los catalanes vamos a ser objeto de muchas iras. Las familias del nacionalismo catalán se están disputando ya su protagonismo en la aprobación del nuevo texto.
Los socialistas, desde Maragall a Montilla, están satisfechos. El presidente Zapatero se ha salido con la suya. El tripartito catalán también. Incluso CiU se presenta como la gran victoriosa.
Dos consideraciones. La primera es que España no se ha roto, no ha muerto, puede vivir incluso mejor con una Cataluña tranquila. La segunda es que el catastrofismo del Partido Popular estaba y está más en su mente que en la realidad.
Finalmente, como es costumbre en democracia, hablarán los ciudadanos a través de las urnas. Cuando toque. En principio en las municipales y atonómicas en 2006 y en las generales en 2007.
Será el balance más interesante y decisivo.
lunes, enero 23, 2006
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15 comentarios:
España no tiene porque romperse, pero si insisten, claro que lo pueden conseguir.
España no es inmortal.
Es una pena para los que consideramos que España es un gran país, del que sentirse orgullosos.
Un cordial saludo.
Sr.Foix:ya sabe Vd mejor que yo,que existe un falso respeto,y es el respeto interesado de quienes sólo te respetan cuando dices,haces o piensas aquello que les interesa que digas,hagas o pienses.
Bartolomé C.
como se rompe ? Este tema es un aburrimiento .
ALBERT
No es que nuestra riquísima España 'no se rompa'. Hay que ir más allá. Es que se está creando una estructura distinta, que pretende reconocer precisamente eso, la riqueza, los tesoros que guarda cada territorio por su peculiar forma de entender la vida con sus sentimientos, sus pensamientos, su civismo y su lengua. Lo mismo que se debe respetar la identidad individual, también debe hacerse de la identidad de los pueblos.
A la paz de los hados serenos,
que se cumplen sin duda los sueños,
que no somos más ni somos menos,
pero haremos un mundo mejor.
.
A veces se escribe la estrategia una vez finalizado el resultado.
No se si este es el caso,pero a Convergencia le salió redondo y a ERC fatal.
Convergencia "apretando" en Catalunya al máximo el Estatut para finalmente conseguir un arreglillo que sin Estatut también se hubiera conseguido. ERC no ponderó correctamente su fuerza. Una lástima.
Maragall, que creo actuó con fidelidad a Catalunya, puede quedarse sin la Presidencia.
El problema de Catalunya no queda resuelto y una gran parte de la sociedad sin un objetivo de ilusión colectivo capaz de hacer frente a los retos de la globalización.
Pobre Catalunya.
Catalonia's go-it-alone posture rattles Spain
By Renwick McLean International Herald Tribune
THURSDAY, JANUARY 19, 2006
MADRID The question of how to keep this country's regions united under one state has simmered in Spanish politics since the establishment of democracy here in 1977. But recent events suggest that the prospect of a constitutional clash between Madrid and the regional governments, long considered remote, has begun to strike some here as a possibility, even if an unlikely one.
The catalyst was the recent declaration by Catalonia, in northeastern Spain, that the region is a nation unto itself with powers of self-government that are not necessarily restricted by the Spanish Constitution.
The declaration, part of a complex proposal for more autonomy from the central government that was overwhelmingly approved by the Catalan Parliament in September, also says that Catalonia has the right to control the collection and distribution of all taxes in the region and to run its own judiciary.
The proposal may be watered down during negotiations under way with Madrid, but it has already set off a wave of public fretting from critics who say it could set the stage for a virtual declaration of independence by Catalonia if supported by the national government in anything resembling its current form.
Perhaps equally worrisome, some critics say, the proposal could encourage other regions to make similar demands.
The most sensational responses to the Catalan proposal have come from the military.
Last week, a top army general, José Mena Aguado, was fired for suggesting that the military was prepared to act to prevent Catalonia and other regions from moving toward independence.
On Wednesday, an army captain from Melilla, the Spanish enclave on Morocco's northern coast where General Francisco Franco began his military takeover of Spain 70 years ago, said that many in the military shared Mena Aguado's views. "Of course there is unrest inside and outside the armed forces," he said in a letter to the newspaper Melilla Hoy. "Unrest upon seeing how our Spain is being dismembered."
José Bono, Spain's defense minister, played down the captain's comments Thursday, saying it was an isolated case. "If someone makes a mistake individually, they are corrected," he told reporters at a breakfast in Madrid.
Since Franco's death in 1975, democracy has established itself firmly in Spain, and military subservience to civilian rule has become ingrained in the affairs of state.
But for a country where memories of dictatorship are still fresh, and where members of the military attempted a coup as recently as 1981, the specter of troops marching through the streets to settle political disputes can still rattle the public.
Even if the fears expressed by these military leaders are exaggerated, comments from an array of influential figures within the political mainstream signal that concerns over regional demands for autonomy are widespread.
King Juan Carlos, who has no executive power but occupies the most influential bully pulpit in Spanish politics, seldom misses a chance these days to stress the importance of national unity.
In another sign of unease, elder statesmen from the governing Socialist Party, among them former Prime Minister Felipe González, have gently warned the government that a tepid response to the Catalan bid for autonomy could set a dangerous precedent.
When it comes to sharing power with Madrid, Spain's 17 regions are not treated as a bloc. Each has its own relationship with Madrid, so concessions to one region could prompt others to call for equal treatment, analysts say.
"The Catalans have taken a position that has raised alarms in other regions," said Julián Santamaría, a political scientist at the Complutense University in Madrid. "It appears to these regions that the Catalans are claiming a privileged position."
Politicians from the conservative opposition make a similar point in arguing that unless the Catalan proposal is met by an unqualified rejection from the central government, it could open the way to the balkanization of Spain.
The prime minister, José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero of the Socialist Party, has resisted many of these outside pressures, insisting that the Catalan measure is worthy of consideration because it was approved by an overwhelming majority of the region's Parliament.
To be sure, Zapatero has said that many elements in the proposal are unconstitutional and must be modified to win his support. But he has expressed a willingness to reach a deal with the Catalans that satisfies many of their demands.
The proposal is making its way through lengthy negotiating sessions between regional and national politicians, a process that could continue for months. It is then scheduled to go to the national Parliament for a final vote.
Despite their impassioned speeches favoring more autonomy, it is far from clear that the Catalans or other regional politicians want outright independence from Spain. Many of even the most committed separatists say they want their regions to remain part of the European Union, and Brussels is unlikely to welcome any region that has seceded from a member state.
The worst-case scenario for Madrid would most likely arise if regional demands for autonomy ended up stripping the Spanish government of much of its power, leaving a collection of regions loosely tied together by a largely symbolic central government whose powers resembled those of the United Nations more than those of a viable modern state.
The chances this will happen are considered slim.
"Despite all the criticisms of Zapatero on this issue, I think that it will be resolved, and the government will get credit for handling it correctly," Santamaría said.
MADRID The question of how to keep this country's regions united under one state has simmered in Spanish politics since the establishment of democracy here in 1977. But recent events suggest that the prospect of a constitutional clash between Madrid and the regional governments, long considered remote, has begun to strike some here as a possibility, even if an unlikely one.
The catalyst was the recent declaration by Catalonia, in northeastern Spain, that the region is a nation unto itself with powers of self-government that are not necessarily restricted by the Spanish Constitution.
The declaration, part of a complex proposal for more autonomy from the central government that was overwhelmingly approved by the Catalan Parliament in September, also says that Catalonia has the right to control the collection and distribution of all taxes in the region and to run its own judiciary.
The proposal may be watered down during negotiations under way with Madrid, but it has already set off a wave of public fretting from critics who say it could set the stage for a virtual declaration of independence by Catalonia if supported by the national government in anything resembling its current form.
Perhaps equally worrisome, some critics say, the proposal could encourage other regions to make similar demands.
The most sensational responses to the Catalan proposal have come from the military.
Last week, a top army general, José Mena Aguado, was fired for suggesting that the military was prepared to act to prevent Catalonia and other regions from moving toward independence.
On Wednesday, an army captain from Melilla, the Spanish enclave on Morocco's northern coast where General Francisco Franco began his military takeover of Spain 70 years ago, said that many in the military shared Mena Aguado's views. "Of course there is unrest inside and outside the armed forces," he said in a letter to the newspaper Melilla Hoy. "Unrest upon seeing how our Spain is being dismembered."
José Bono, Spain's defense minister, played down the captain's comments Thursday, saying it was an isolated case. "If someone makes a mistake individually, they are corrected," he told reporters at a breakfast in Madrid.
Since Franco's death in 1975, democracy has established itself firmly in Spain, and military subservience to civilian rule has become ingrained in the affairs of state.
But for a country where memories of dictatorship are still fresh, and where members of the military attempted a coup as recently as 1981, the specter of troops marching through the streets to settle political disputes can still rattle the public.
Even if the fears expressed by these military leaders are exaggerated, comments from an array of influential figures within the political mainstream signal that concerns over regional demands for autonomy are widespread.
King Juan Carlos, who has no executive power but occupies the most influential bully pulpit in Spanish politics, seldom misses a chance these days to stress the importance of national unity.
In another sign of unease, elder statesmen from the governing Socialist Party, among them former Prime Minister Felipe González, have gently warned the government that a tepid response to the Catalan bid for autonomy could set a dangerous precedent.
When it comes to sharing power with Madrid, Spain's 17 regions are not treated as a bloc. Each has its own relationship with Madrid, so concessions to one region could prompt others to call for equal treatment, analysts say.
"The Catalans have taken a position that has raised alarms in other regions," said Julián Santamaría, a political scientist at the Complutense University in Madrid. "It appears to these regions that the Catalans are claiming a privileged position."
Politicians from the conservative opposition make a similar point in arguing that unless the Catalan proposal is met by an unqualified rejection from the central government, it could open the way to the balkanization of Spain.
The prime minister, José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero of the Socialist Party, has resisted many of these outside pressures, insisting that the Catalan measure is worthy of consideration because it was approved by an overwhelming majority of the region's Parliament.
To be sure, Zapatero has said that many elements in the proposal are unconstitutional and must be modified to win his support. But he has expressed a willingness to reach a deal with the Catalans that satisfies many of their demands.
The proposal is making its way through lengthy negotiating sessions between regional and national politicians, a process that could continue for months. It is then scheduled to go to the national Parliament for a final vote.
Despite their impassioned speeches favoring more autonomy, it is far from clear that the Catalans or other regional politicians want outright independence from Spain. Many of even the most committed separatists say they want their regions to remain part of the European Union, and Brussels is unlikely to welcome any region that has seceded from a member state.
The worst-case scenario for Madrid would most likely arise if regional demands for autonomy ended up stripping the Spanish government of much of its power, leaving a collection of regions loosely tied together by a largely symbolic central government whose powers resembled those of the United Nations more than those of a viable modern state.
The chances this will happen are considered slim.
"Despite all the criticisms of Zapatero on this issue, I think that it will be resolved, and the government will get credit for handling it correctly," Santamaría said.
MADRID The question of how to keep this country's regions united under one state has simmered in Spanish politics since the establishment of democracy here in 1977. But recent events suggest that the prospect of a constitutional clash between Madrid and the regional governments, long considered remote, has begun to strike some here as a possibility, even if an unlikely one.
The catalyst was the recent declaration by Catalonia, in northeastern Spain, that the region is a nation unto itself with powers of self-government that are not necessarily restricted by the Spanish Constitution.
The declaration, part of a complex proposal for more autonomy from the central government that was overwhelmingly approved by the Catalan Parliament in September, also says that Catalonia has the right to control the collection and distribution of all taxes in the region and to run its own judiciary.
The proposal may be watered down during negotiations under way with Madrid, but it has already set off a wave of public fretting from critics who say it could set the stage for a virtual declaration of independence by Catalonia if supported by the national government in anything resembling its current form.
Perhaps equally worrisome, some critics say, the proposal could encourage other regions to make similar demands.
The most sensational responses to the Catalan proposal have come from the military.
Last week, a top army general, José Mena Aguado, was fired for suggesting that the military was prepared to act to prevent Catalonia and other regions from moving toward independence.
On Wednesday, an army captain from Melilla, the Spanish enclave on Morocco's northern coast where General Francisco Franco began his military takeover of Spain 70 years ago, said that many in the military shared Mena Aguado's views. "Of course there is unrest inside and outside the armed forces," he said in a letter to the newspaper Melilla Hoy. "Unrest upon seeing how our Spain is being dismembered."
José Bono, Spain's defense minister, played down the captain's comments Thursday, saying it was an isolated case. "If someone makes a mistake individually, they are corrected," he told reporters at a breakfast in Madrid.
Since Franco's death in 1975, democracy has established itself firmly in Spain, and military subservience to civilian rule has become ingrained in the affairs of state.
But for a country where memories of dictatorship are still fresh, and where members of the military attempted a coup as recently as 1981, the specter of troops marching through the streets to settle political disputes can still rattle the public.
Even if the fears expressed by these military leaders are exaggerated, comments from an array of influential figures within the political mainstream signal that concerns over regional demands for autonomy are widespread.
King Juan Carlos, who has no executive power but occupies the most influential bully pulpit in Spanish politics, seldom misses a chance these days to stress the importance of national unity.
In another sign of unease, elder statesmen from the governing Socialist Party, among them former Prime Minister Felipe González, have gently warned the government that a tepid response to the Catalan bid for autonomy could set a dangerous precedent.
When it comes to sharing power with Madrid, Spain's 17 regions are not treated as a bloc. Each has its own relationship with Madrid, so concessions to one region could prompt others to call for equal treatment, analysts say.
"The Catalans have taken a position that has raised alarms in other regions," said Julián Santamaría, a political scientist at the Complutense University in Madrid. "It appears to these regions that the Catalans are claiming a privileged position."
Politicians from the conservative opposition make a similar point in arguing that unless the Catalan proposal is met by an unqualified rejection from the central government, it could open the way to the balkanization of Spain.
The prime minister, José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero of the Socialist Party, has resisted many of these outside pressures, insisting that the Catalan measure is worthy of consideration because it was approved by an overwhelming majority of the region's Parliament.
To be sure, Zapatero has said that many elements in the proposal are unconstitutional and must be modified to win his support. But he has expressed a willingness to reach a deal with the Catalans that satisfies many of their demands.
The proposal is making its way through lengthy negotiating sessions between regional and national politicians, a process that could continue for months. It is then scheduled to go to the national Parliament for a final vote.
Despite their impassioned speeches favoring more autonomy, it is far from clear that the Catalans or other regional politicians want outright independence from Spain. Many of even the most committed separatists say they want their regions to remain part of the European Union, and Brussels is unlikely to welcome any region that has seceded from a member state.
The worst-case scenario for Madrid would most likely arise if regional demands for autonomy ended up stripping the Spanish government of much of its power, leaving a collection of regions loosely tied together by a largely symbolic central government whose powers resembled those of the United Nations more than those of a viable modern state.
The chances this will happen are considered slim.
"Despite all the criticisms of Zapatero on this issue, I think that it will be resolved, and the government will get credit for handling it correctly," Santamaría said.
MADRID The question of how to keep this country's regions united under one state has simmered in Spanish politics since the establishment of democracy here in 1977. But recent events suggest that the prospect of a constitutional clash between Madrid and the regional governments, long considered remote, has begun to strike some here as a possibility, even if an unlikely one.
The catalyst was the recent declaration by Catalonia, in northeastern Spain, that the region is a nation unto itself with powers of self-government that are not necessarily restricted by the Spanish Constitution.
The declaration, part of a complex proposal for more autonomy from the central government that was overwhelmingly approved by the Catalan Parliament in September, also says that Catalonia has the right to control the collection and distribution of all taxes in the region and to run its own judiciary.
The proposal may be watered down during negotiations under way with Madrid, but it has already set off a wave of public fretting from critics who say it could set the stage for a virtual declaration of independence by Catalonia if supported by the national government in anything resembling its current form.
Perhaps equally worrisome, some critics say, the proposal could encourage other regions to make similar demands.
The most sensational responses to the Catalan proposal have come from the military.
Last week, a top army general, José Mena Aguado, was fired for suggesting that the military was prepared to act to prevent Catalonia and other regions from moving toward independence.
On Wednesday, an army captain from Melilla, the Spanish enclave on Morocco's northern coast where General Francisco Franco began his military takeover of Spain 70 years ago, said that many in the military shared Mena Aguado's views. "Of course there is unrest inside and outside the armed forces," he said in a letter to the newspaper Melilla Hoy. "Unrest upon seeing how our Spain is being dismembered."
José Bono, Spain's defense minister, played down the captain's comments Thursday, saying it was an isolated case. "If someone makes a mistake individually, they are corrected," he told reporters at a breakfast in Madrid.
Since Franco's death in 1975, democracy has established itself firmly in Spain, and military subservience to civilian rule has become ingrained in the affairs of state.
But for a country where memories of dictatorship are still fresh, and where members of the military attempted a coup as recently as 1981, the specter of troops marching through the streets to settle political disputes can still rattle the public.
Even if the fears expressed by these military leaders are exaggerated, comments from an array of influential figures within the political mainstream signal that concerns over regional demands for autonomy are widespread.
King Juan Carlos, who has no executive power but occupies the most influential bully pulpit in Spanish politics, seldom misses a chance these days to stress the importance of national unity.
In another sign of unease, elder statesmen from the governing Socialist Party, among them former Prime Minister Felipe González, have gently warned the government that a tepid response to the Catalan bid for autonomy could set a dangerous precedent.
When it comes to sharing power with Madrid, Spain's 17 regions are not treated as a bloc. Each has its own relationship with Madrid, so concessions to one region could prompt others to call for equal treatment, analysts say.
"The Catalans have taken a position that has raised alarms in other regions," said Julián Santamaría, a political scientist at the Complutense University in Madrid. "It appears to these regions that the Catalans are claiming a privileged position."
Politicians from the conservative opposition make a similar point in arguing that unless the Catalan proposal is met by an unqualified rejection from the central government, it could open the way to the balkanization of Spain.
The prime minister, José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero of the Socialist Party, has resisted many of these outside pressures, insisting that the Catalan measure is worthy of consideration because it was approved by an overwhelming majority of the region's Parliament.
To be sure, Zapatero has said that many elements in the proposal are unconstitutional and must be modified to win his support. But he has expressed a willingness to reach a deal with the Catalans that satisfies many of their demands.
The proposal is making its way through lengthy negotiating sessions between regional and national politicians, a process that could continue for months. It is then scheduled to go to the national Parliament for a final vote.
Despite their impassioned speeches favoring more autonomy, it is far from clear that the Catalans or other regional politicians want outright independence from Spain. Many of even the most committed separatists say they want their regions to remain part of the European Union, and Brussels is unlikely to welcome any region that has seceded from a member state.
The worst-case scenario for Madrid would most likely arise if regional demands for autonomy ended up stripping the Spanish government of much of its power, leaving a collection of regions loosely tied together by a largely symbolic central government whose powers resembled those of the United Nations more than those of a viable modern state.
The chances this will happen are considered slim.
"Despite all the criticisms of Zapatero on this issue, I think that it will be resolved, and the government will get credit for handling it correctly," Santamaría said.
Cuando hablamos de "romper" o "desaparecer", si hablamos de la estructura institucional y política, hablamos precisamente de la correspondencia de esta con el país que uno cree que existe.
Una España sin estructura política es como no decir nada, España no es un "accidente geográfico", porque ni siquiera coincide con la Peninsula Ibérica, es un hecho político e histórico, y la cuestión a responder es de que contenidos debe estar dotado.
"Estar" en España sin creer en ella es una incoherencia, y vaciarla de contenido político diciendo que no se hace desaparecer, es falso, pero es falso no porque se quiera mentir intencionadamente, sino porque yo creo que no se ve el hecho de que, una vez vaciado de contenido institucional y político, España no sería nada realmente, porque un nombre que no denomina nada no es necesario, se deja de usar, y muere.
La pregunta a responder por lo tanto es, si realmente uno piensa que España es inmortal y por lo tanto dejando todos los procesos políticos en manos de quien no cree en su existencia no puede hacerla desapacer (cosa que yo creo que sí se puede), y dos, como los que precisamente trabajan para su desaparición, pueden afirmar al mismo tiempo que no va a desaparecer.
Estamos en este foro hablando en castellano y todavía nadie ha justificado exactamente la necesidad previa de vaciar de contenido a España, que justifique la confederalización constante a la que nos llevan algunas minorías.
Si remitimos dicho proceso a una cuestión de eficiencia y eficacia institucional, no es razonable esperar que ciertas competencias puedan gestionarse mejor aumentando la jerarquía institucional, y duplicando la burocracia necesaria para tomar cada decisión.
Si no hay una justificación identitaria, el razonamiento práctico nos lleva a una organización federal, que comparta un espacio político entre el conjunto y las partes, compartiendo recursos e instituciones, si por el contrario hay una justificación identitaria, y volvemos a lo anterior, es decir, a la negación de España como realidad política, volveríamos a la diatriba que se planteo en otros mensajes: la supuesta incompatibilidad entre el hecho catalán y el hecho español, y por lo tanto, el sostenimiento del conflicto que se alimenta desde los nacionalismos centrífugos.
Desde una perspectiva, o desde otra, no veo que nadie plantee un debate ideológico con respecto a los verdaderos motores de las tendencias actuales, y al parecer, tanto la clase política y parte de la sociedad se mueve en base a una cierta inercia que parece caminar sobre el aire.
Cordiales Saludos.
Finalmente, como es costumbre en democracia, hablarán los ciudadanos a través de las urnas. Cuando toque. En principio en las municipales y autonómicas en 2006 y en las generales en 2007.
Antes de las municipales y de las autonómicas, habrá que votar también en el referéndum de este Estatuto. Completamente de acuerdo en que éste será el balance más interesante y decisivo. Artur Mas ha dilapidado en siete horas todos los puntos que acumuló en Septiembre. Veremos si los ciudadanos catalanes no le pasan factura, tarde o temprano, por este autogol.
A MiguelINR y al anónimo de las 12.14.
A Miguel:
Si no recuerdo mal no fué hasta 1833 que los reyes juraban fidelidad a Castilla. Yo respeto, bueno intento respetar, su fidelidad a una intelequia llamada España, pero Vd. debe respetar también mi intelequia llamada Països Catalans. La historia esta de mi parte. La fuerza y la política de la suya. Y ese es el dilema. Francamente no se si esa tendencia de lo local que impone la globalización finalmente me dará la razón. Pero sí se que el problema catalán no esta cerrado. Lo que terminamos de contemplar es una estrategia partidista, muy legitima. Pero nada más. Es el poder por el poder. Es el "tener" antes que el "ser" que me tiene atrapado intelectualmente en estos últimos años.
Al anónimo de las 12.14
Me gustaría compartir sus deseos pero mucho me temo que, una vez más, el nacionalismo catalán, debera emprender un largo camino por el desierto.
Saludos
Adios ERC adios, un par de años , unas fotos y algun chofer , pero la diferenncia entre los profesionales ( psoe - ciu ) y los aficionados ( erc ) es muy grande . Que sepan que el billete de autobus es ahora mas caro . 1,20 euros.
ALBERT
Los pïsos cataláns no han existido nunca políticamente hablando, y esa fidelidad de la que habla no se daba entre sociedades, sino entre coronas absolutistas que no dependían absoluto de sanciones populares.
La Corona de Aragón es muy anterior a todo eso, pero no voy a usar eso para justificar ninguna decisión actual.
Por esa regla de tres, Al-Andalus podría seguir existiendo perfectamente, y Al Qaeda podría reclamar desde Córdoba hasta Valladolid, lo cual es, si me lo permite, una estupidez.
España no es, y lo siento mucho, una entelequia. En la Unión Europea no hay entelequias, hay Estados. A uno le puede parecer mejor o peor, pero otra cosa muy distinta es negar la realidad.
Dicho esto, sería interesante abordar el debate de ideas que plantee antes.
Cordiales saludos.
Catalunya NO es España. No hemos de remontarnos a la Corona de Aragón para saberlo. La história está repleta de datos. Pero lo más importante es el sentimiento actual. Tenemos una lengua y una cultura distinta y tenemos un fuerte sentimiento identitario.
Queremos decidir por nosotros mismos.
El estatuto aprobado es muy de mínimos pero el rechazo ya es máximo.
El problema no es que Catalunya no acepte España, es que España no acepta a Catalunya.
Para que uno crezca, primero debe aceptarse a si mismo.
A mi me da la sensación que les han vuelto a tomar el pelo( me refiero a CIU y a ERC), el PSC-PSOE debe estar encantado y mejor todavía creo que hasta el PP esta contento pero no lo puede demostrar. Lo digo como ciudadano que flipo con lo que se ha montado, por parte de todos, para llegar a esto.
Hemos pasado de Catalunya es una Nacio a
"El Parlament de Catalunya, recollint el sentiment i la voluntat de la ciutadania en el seu conjunt, ha definit de manera ampliament majoritària Catalunya com a nació”. O sea queda dicho que el Parlament opina que Catalunya es una Nacio, si es cierto o no es lo de menos y si vale para algo este pronunciamiento tambien. Os recuerdo que tambien hay pronunciamientos del Parlament sobre la autodeterminación que no significan nada.
En el tema de la financiacion han llegado a un acuerdo sobre porcentajes de impuestos, mejores que los que había pero este tipo de acuerdos son parecidos a las negociaciones del Majestic pero con mejores porcentajes. ¿Para esto era necesario crear un nuevo estatut?
En la Agencia Tributaria ya es de cachondeo, han llegado al acuerdo de que si se ponen de acuerdo y depende de quien gobierne y en que condiciones a lo mejor hay Agencia tributaria catalana única o no en los próximos años. Vamos, de traca¡¡.
En las competencias me parece que es en lo único que se ha avanzado minimamente pero aun no se si quedan blindadas ante una LOAPA o no y tampoco cuales son las nuevas.
Lo de las nuevas inversiones tambien es de traca, es un acuerdo fuera del Estatut y dependera de quien gobierne en Madrid.
Por otro lado si el acuerdo es este y vosotros lo entendeis como yo, decir que me quito el sombrero ante Zapatero porque es un mago que lo consigue todo a base de talante.
Luis T.
"Catalunya NO ES España"
...
"El problema no es que Catalunya no acepte España, es que España no acepta a Catalunya."
Si esto no es una incoherencia, que baje Dios y lo vea.
Yo, y creo que muchos, aceptamos perfectamente a Cataluña, lo que no se es si Cataluña acepta a España, y cuando decimos "aceptar", nos referimos, evidentemente, a "ser parte de", porque si no, no se de que clase de "aceptamiento" estamos hablando.
Si el Partido Popular gobernara hubiera conseguido un pacto muy similar al conseguido ahora por Zapatero y CIU, y lo saben perfectamente.
ERC se ha tirado al monte.
Saludo la petición de MiguelNR de llevar el debate al terreno ideológico.
En mi opinión, la esencia del tema está en los conceptos de Estado y Nación, a menudo interesadamente confundidos.
MiguelNR manifiesta en alguna intervención que la única realidad es que en Europa hay Estados. Yo añadiría que también naciones. Con y sin estado. Dentro y por encima de los estados.
Nación es un conjunto de personas que comparten lengua, historia, cultura y tradiciones, pero sobre todo... con un profundo sentimiento de pertenencia al grupo.
En este sentido, a mí me parece absurdo que alguien no identificado con el grupo pretenda negar su legitimidad de los demás para declararse como les parezca. Es como si a mí me diera por oponerme a que los kurdos se sintieran nación.
Se argumentará probablemente que esa declaración no puede ir en contra o menoscabo de otras... y posiblemente sea cierto. Pero es que una realidad nacional no niega la otra: yo soy catalán, también me siento español y profundamente europeo. ¿Por qué han de estar en conflicto? Yo no lo tengo.
Un pequeño recurso al absurdo. Supongamos por un momento que la UE pretendiera dar un impulso a su construcción como estado, y pretendiera vaciar de contenido a los actuales estados miembros, dejándolos como meros administradores autonómicos. Recibiendo lo que se recibe, disfrutando de los beneficios de la pertenencia a ella... ¿alguien cree que realmente en España habría un movimiento nacionalista en defensa de esa Una, Grande y Libre?
¿Por qué admitimos -y reclamamos- el encaje de España en Europa respetando su propia identidad nacional, negándola en cambio a Catalunya que hace y pide lo mismo en España?
¿Miedo a un proceso de separación? A mi entender es, además de mayoritariamente rechazado, inviable.
Que en la formación europea del XIX las distintas naciones hayan venido reclamando la soberanía a fin de poder constituir un estado propio no significa que en XXI tenga que ser así. Ejemplos de estados supranacionales los tenemos en Bélgica o Canadá, siendo la misma UE un buen caso de formación de Estado plurinacional... y que respeta las realidades nacionales.
Por no hablar de otras naciones, con o sin estado, que siguen constituyendo serios problemas en el mundo, como podrían ser la kurda o hebrea.
¿Por qué empecinarse en imponer la propia visión a los demás sobre su vida? Nunca como ahora ha existido en Europa un escenario de paz y tranquilidad que nos permita coexistir, cada uno con su identidad, tratar los temas comunes, alcanzar acuerdos.
Soy defensor acérrimo de los signos de identidad, los sentimientos de cada cual merecen respeto. Ahí reside la libertad. Y sólo desde la libertad y el respeto puede construirse algo grande, sólo respetando al compañero se puede avanzar en común.
Nunca tratando de decirle quién es o qué es lo que puede hacer, pensar o decir.
Tendré mucho gusto en oír la réplica de MiguelNR. Un saludo.
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